How to Calculate CAC to LTV Across Shopify and Amazon
Most brands selling on Shopify and Amazon treat them as two separate businesses to optimize.
In this episode of The Free to Grow CFO Podcast, Jon Blair sits down again with Shinghi Detlefsen of ExpandFi to go deeper on multi-channel CAC to LTV optimization for brands with significant Shopify and Amazon sales. They break down why Shopify and Amazon customers behave completely differently — different subscription rates, different repurchase behavior, different AOV — and why blending the two into one combined cohort model is the only way to see the true impact of top-of-funnel spend like Meta, since a meaningful share of that spend is actually converting on Amazon for free. Shinghi walks through ExpandFi's "spend curve" methodology for deciding where to spend more or less at the ASIN and keyword level, and Jon shares a real client example where digging into channel-specific LTV data revealed their best-converting subscription product was completely different on Amazon versus Shopify — a shift that meaningfully increased profitability once they acted on it.
If you're scaling a brand across Shopify and Amazon and want a real framework for optimizing CAC to LTV across both, not just guessing at a blended number, this one's for you.
Episode Links
Jon Blair - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathon-albert-blair/
Shinghi Detlefsen- https://www.linkedin.com/in/shinghi-detlefsen-5ab3183a/
Free to Grow CFO - https://freetogrowcfo.com/
Expandfi - expandfi.com
Key Takeaways
Shopify ad spend often drives "free" Amazon sales through cross-channel spillover, so brands who only look at Shopify CAC are underestimating their true acquisition efficiency.
A combined Shopify plus Amazon cohort model is necessary to set an accurate blended CAC to LTV target and payback period.
Digging into channel-specific, even product-specific, LTV data can reveal that different products drive LTV on Amazon versus Shopify.
Transcript
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00:33 Introduction
02:13 Why combined CAC to LTV data matters across channels
05:11 Subscription vs. non-subscription dynamics on each channel
09:26 Setting up cohort data and calculating blended CAC
11:13 Spend curves and response rates for smarter ad allocation
14:22 Case study: aligning tactical moves to business outcomes
16:46 Why this analysis has to be continuous, not one-time
18:52 Churn, retention, and why growth never stops
21:24 What's next for ExpandFi
26:22 – Final thoughts and call to action
Jon Blair (00:33)
Alright, stoked to be back. Let's see, think this is a two-pete. This is a second time coming on the Free To Go CFO podcast. I got Shinghi Detlefson from ExpandFi. Shinghi, what's up man?
Shinghi Detlefsen (00:46)
Hey Jon happy to be back. Thanks for having us here.
Jon Blair (00:49)
Yes, we're about to get super nerdy talking about multi-channel CAC to LTV optimization. I'm super excited. If you guys haven't heard the first episode that we did with Shinghi a number of weeks back, definitely go listen to that. We got really got in the weeds in talking about how to analyze customer level profitability in the context of being a brand that has a heavy Amazon presence and a heavy Shopify presence.
What I want to zero in on today is kind of like going deeper on a kind of more narrow cut of what we are very effectively using Shinghi's company's platform, ExpandFi for, which is CAC to LTV optimization when you have a significant amount of both Shopify and Amazon sales. So to set the stage before we dive in, here's the problem. The problem is,
Okay, when you start as just a Shopify brand, CAC to LTV analysis, pretty easy, because you got just one sales channel. You can pull the cohort data from, effectively, honestly, you can pull straight from Shopify, but any number of Shopify apps. But then the problem starts when you start scaling on Amazon, and on the front end, the UI of the Amazon platform, there's very little new versus returning customer level data, and building out a cohort model
is next to impossible, right? Then enters a platform like ExpandFi where we can actually look at it combined, Shopify plus Amazon, CAC to LTV cohort level data. And why is this so important? Because we have to be able to measure the impact across both channels of our top of funnel spend in channels like Meta. So, Shinghi, to start, what is...
From your perspective, what's kind of like the fundamental, most basic blocking and tackling of what data a brand needs to get to to be able to do CAC to LTV analysis properly across both of these channels?
Shinghi Detlefsen (03:02)
Yeah, I mean, one thing we see a lot. So when the Shopify heavy brands like go to Amazon, right, and they treat Amazon as like a secondary channel, they're not like too vested in it, they're not too interested in it. What we generally see is like in brand analytics, their keyword market share. So I go look at that, and I'm usually walking through that and do most of their sales are coming from branded terms. So they like it's brand X plus whatever product they're selling.
And when that happens, means that you have incredibly cheap cost of acquisition on Amazon because you win branded terms. And then also in Branded Analytics, they'll show you what percentage of share do you have of those terms. And with branded, you're typically always above 60. Because if somebody's taking the time and effort to search for your brand name and your product, you're super high up there. So when you're trying to calculate
blended CAC to LTV across these different channels. Like that's when understanding, if you're not heavy on Amazon, understanding that all of that money that you're spending, and if you're only looking at Shopify, like your cost of acquisition on Shopify is giving you a tremendous amount of free customers on Amazon. Free, right? Quote unquote. Yeah. And like, so like, there's like this massive spillover that happens.
Jon Blair (04:16)
Yeah, yeah, exactly free,
Shinghi Detlefsen (04:23)
And a lot of the Shopify guys and even a lot of the Amazon guys, they're like, no, I want them to only buy on Shopify. Like they have this mindset that they only want them to buy on Shopify. But at the end of the day, like you can't control where a customer likes to buy. Right? Like even if I love a Shopify brand or brand in general, I'm still going to buy them from Amazon because of the trust, the convenience of the speed of delivery, like all of the factors that go into why Amazon is great. That's why.
Jon Blair (04:37)
Totally.
Shinghi Detlefsen (04:51)
So yeah, when you're managing Halo, it's like you have to take into the full account. And that's where like we're adding in meta ideally by the end of September. And there we'll actually have not only just a blended CAC for each channel, but like a true CAC. Like, hey, this is your total ad spend. And here's how that is flooded out across all of your different channels and tell you what you actually paid to acquire a customer regardless of channel.
But yeah, that's important too. And then also like understanding like the customers that you acquire and how that you get your purchases on Shopify is also very different than Amazon. I'll give you an example of my own brand. 60 some percent of our revenue on Shopify comes from new subscribers and returning subscribers. On Amazon, it's almost every supplement brand or brand similar. It's in like the 20 to 30 % range.
So you have a tremendous amount of stickiness on the Shopify side that you don't have in a subscription on the Amazon side. There's a lot of returning non-subscribers on Amazon, less so on Shopify, but that's just like the name of the game. So you have to understand too, the amount of money that you can spend on Shopify, if you're not considering your subscription revenue too, you're probably under buying ads. You could be spending more.
Jon Blair (05:54)
Mm-hmm.
Shinghi Detlefsen (06:09)
So anyways, it's a full life cycle, it's math at the end of the day. It's just math. Like, that's the game.
Jon Blair (06:10)
No, yeah.
Jon Blair (06:17)
Totally, so I wanna go level deeper into this, that sets the stage nicely that like, effectively, you can't optimize CAC to LTV without looking at Shopify and Amazon cohorts combined and CAC combined. just, you have to because there is no reliable way to take a dollar of top of funnel ad spend and attribute it to a single new customer purchase on either platform.
And so because of that, you need to look at, you need to look at the blended impact, but you also mentioned something really important, which is that that doesn't, that doesn't mean that you don't look at any sales channel specific metrics to optimize LTV to CAC. You do. One of the biggest things that we use ExpandFi for is to look at the difference between subscribers and non-subscribers and how they perform,
on what their LTV is over time, both on Shopify and Amazon separately, because like you mentioned, we never see it the same. And the interesting thing about that is that I actually know, and you're gonna laugh when I say this, a lot of people think I'm crazy. Like honestly, I talk to a lot of other people in the ecomm finance space and they're like, well, why can't you just...
apply the same new versus returning customer mix from Shopify to your Amazon sales to then estimate new versus returning customer sales every single month. And I'm like, the reason you can't do that is because they're freaking different and they're really different. And we look at this through the ExpandFi platform across a number of brands and how different they are is different for every brand. We actually have a couple of brands we work on that use ExpandFi that their Amazon customer is actually stickier than their Shopify customer.
Shinghi Detlefsen (07:56)
They are.
Jon Blair (08:11)
but the rest of them, the rest of the brands we work with, that's not the case. So the point I'm making is there's blended and then there's getting down into more, into sales channel specific metrics.
Shinghi Detlefsen (08:15)
Yeah.
Shinghi Detlefsen (08:23)
Yeah, and even on that, like I love pointing out to people and this is often the case that your repurchase rate on Amazon is often higher than it is on Shopify. But your AOV on Shopify outweighs that. So like you're getting less repurchases but because you can do upselling, you can do free shipping, all of these other pieces, like it kind of you win there a little bit more. But yeah, you're right. Like those customers are fundamentally different. And then the other part is they're cross buying across channels, right?
Jon Blair (08:36)
Mm.
Jon Blair (08:52)
Yeah, that makes it a lot that makes it even more complicated.
Shinghi Detlefsen (08:53)
Yes, Mark.
Shinghi Detlefsen (08:57)
Yeah, and we did like a study and like we actually built like an whole algorithm and everything to be able to like measure this. Amazon doesn't like you identifying Amazon customers elsewhere. So we didn't do that. But the study was basically it's like 10 % of Shopify go to Amazon at the minimum, right? Like 10 % will go over there. And that's a 10 % more that you can spend on CAC that you don't realize, right?
Jon Blair (09:10)
Yeah
Shinghi Detlefsen (09:26)
Cause those are extra purchases that are happening elsewhere. But anyway, yeah, that's the case.
Jon Blair (09:26)
for sure.
Jon Blair (09:31)
So here's kind of the methodology that we have created and look largely from a data availability standpoint, largely aided by ExpandFi, which is why I wanted to have you come back on and chat through this is we set up the ability and I'll let you talk a little bit more to the technical side of this in a second, but we set up the ability to extract through ExpandFi effectively.
cohort data for both Shopify and Amazon. And also we bring in ad spend data to effectively marry up with Expandify's data to calculate what our cac, our combined or blended cac is across Shopify and Amazon. And then we're also building out this cohort view of Shopify by itself. And then Amazon by itself.
And then combined both from a revenue standpoint, and then what you guys call lifetime growth, gross profit, or converting lifetime value from revenue dollars to effectively margin dollars from that. That's not the only thing we do, but that's step one to ultimately do what? To arrive at a combined Shopify plus Amazon new customer ROAS target that we're willing to spend against or CAC. It's just, it's, you know, kind of inverse of one another.
Shinghi Detlefsen (10:56)
Right, and then you can spend the ad dollars across different channels, but so long as the total comes back to that, you're in a pretty good spot.
Jon Blair (10:56)
Then.
Jon Blair (11:02)
Exactly, but ultimately what we're looking for is Amazon and Shopify combined, are we paying back that CAC by some target? Like usually, let's just say we said we want our CAC paid back by month three. What we're doing is we're making sure on a combined basis across channels that as we get to certain CAC levels, we are still paying back that CAC by month three and then after month three, we're profitable. But there's a lot of stuff we can dig into using ExpandFi to go levels deeper to understand the Amazon customer versus the Shopify customer.
What are some of the things that you're personally most excited about that aid going like levels deeper to go? Okay, we see what's happening on a blended basis, but now let's see what's happening at the customer level in both platforms.
Shinghi Detlefsen (11:36)
Yeah.
Shinghi Detlefsen (11:46)
Yeah, so we have a report that's called a spend curve in ExpandFi And in the spend curve, what we do is we know your LTV to CAC, and we know your LTV to, or your lifetime profit to CAC, lifetime contribution profit to CAC. And we help you determine for each ASIN in each sales channel, should you be spending more or less?
And in that calculation, there's also what we call a response rate, which understands if you spend more on advertising, let's say 50 % more, you don't see 50 % more new customers, right? There's a decay curve that occurs. And we look at your advertising history and we can calculate that based on, you know, the changes you've made in your ad account. And so for every ASIN now, you get this recommendation that's like, hey, we believe you should spend more or we believe that you should become more efficient and spend less. And
That's great, but the next question is like, where? Where do you go spend more? Where do you go spend less? And that's something I've been working on a long time and our latest version of the MCP actually can solve for this. And I just wrote a blog post on this, likely gonna go as a skill to our agents very soon. So everyone who has the MCP will get it. But we look at it in this perspective. So you can say, okay, where do I go spend more? We'll do a call to AMC to understand new to brand per keyword.
So they give you a rate and anything greater than 50 % means that like if you spend an incremental dollar, there's a greater than 50 % chance that you're gonna get a new customer from that dollar. And then anything less than 50 % is a lower chance. So you wanna be looking at what's greater than 50 is where you wanna spend more. And then the next question is like, well, the spend curve is saying that I need to spend $20,000. How should I allocate that $20,000 across all these different keywords?
Jon Blair (13:17)
Got it.
Shinghi Detlefsen (13:33)
And for that, what we're building is we are determining, we take your cost per click, we take your conversion rate, and we take your new to brand rate, and you multiply and combine all of them to say, hey, this keyword will cost you X amount of dollars per new customer, and this one will cost you Y amount of dollars per new customer. And then you can just literally take your budget and it'll help you allocate that across all of your different keywords to maximize incrementality for new customers.
So like that's the level that we want to solve for the Amazon side. Shopify is a much more different game, right? It's like creative, it's angles, it's how well you can spend, it's scaling, all the other stuff. But on Amazon, I think we've made it to the point where it's math. Like it's pure math outside of obviously listing optimization, product quality, all the rest, it's math. So pretty stuff.
Jon Blair (14:26)
it's pretty cool because like what ultimately what this comes down to is like We need to we need we need to measure how the these different tactical moves that we're making at you know ad Levels campaign levels channel levels all that is it is it laddering up to the business outcome that we need right and so by looking at a combined Shopify plus Amazon cac to LTV
Shinghi Detlefsen (14:50)
Yeah.
Jon Blair (14:55)
analysis, but then digging deeper into the platform to decide how to make some of these more kind of micro tactical moves, you can then come back to that macro, you know, blended CAC to LTV analysis and say, are we still paying back our CAC by month three or sooner like we want to so you know you're still getting the business outcome that you need. I'll give I'll give another example. There's a mutual client that we have one of our CFOs.
using ExpandFi data, he set up this combined cohort in CAC to LTV kind of process and decided with the brand like, we're gonna target a one new customer ROAS. So we can spend, ad spend wherever we want to tactically up to a one new customer ROAS. If we wanna go effectively below that, right, we need to rerun the cohort model and confirm that we're good with the payback period, because the payback's gonna probably get stretched further out.
Shinghi Detlefsen (15:45)
Yeah.
Jon Blair (15:53)
As they were trying to figure out how to allocate dollars against that, you know, that minimum new customer row as floor of one, they were digging into ExpandFi and found that the product that was driving the most LTV on Amazon was not the same product that was driving the most LTV on Shopify. And they, they actually had, they were trying to apply their Shopify basically
Shinghi Detlefsen (16:15)
Hmm. Yep. Common.
Jon Blair (16:21)
product level subscription strategy over to their Amazon strategy. And it was, it was pushing up that, that product that they pushed on Shopify that was converting subscribers was not doing the same on Amazon. And so as soon as they use that ExpandFi, you know, insight and started focusing on this other product as really the LTV driver and incentivizing, you know, subscribe and save,
things really started taking off and that brand is doing is more profitable and growing faster than they've ever been in the company's history. Again, all the while making sure we're spending such that we don't fall below that one combined new customer ROAS and checking in on the cohort model on a combined basis every single month. So a great example of how you go macro to micro, macro to micro, and that's really what you're doing is going up and down the data granularity scale.
Shinghi Detlefsen (17:06)
Yeah.
Shinghi Detlefsen (17:19)
Yeah, and a lot of people think this is a one-time deal. You like you figured out one time you're done. This is like constantly you need to be looking at because environments change, right? And like, you know, ads can change. You have to be constantly coming back to this data and interpreting it correctly. Yeah, that's great. You know, and that's like the cool thing about the tool is just like, it's just, you can go as deep as you want, right? And that's why I always recommend folks to like,
Jon Blair (17:24)
Totally.
Jon Blair (17:31)
100%.
Shinghi Detlefsen (17:49)
check out Free to Grow CFO because you need somebody who can think like that. A lot of brands are so scared to spend more. They think that spending more means less. To them, there's this conflict where, well, if I spend more on ads, I'm going to make less money. But for many brands, it's actually the opposite. You're leaving, you're losing money by not spending more.
Jon Blair (18:01)
for sure.
Jon Blair (18:13)
Totally.
Shinghi Detlefsen (18:14)
And especially brands that think like they're top top and they have like they have their market share, whatever it's if they're not spending and they're not growing or they're not capturing that open market share, they're allowing their competitors to come in for a cheaper amount than if they just took it themselves for a cheaper amount. So it's like, it's a full game. This is literally like Gameboy. This is a game, the whole thing.
Jon Blair (18:31)
100%.
Jon Blair (18:36)
You can't ever stop and I'm a firm believer in the fact that you do actually have to always be growing or eventually you will start dying. It's just the law of one, competitive forces, but two, the fact that your customer base does churn and turn over over time, right? And like you...
You look at any cohort model for even brands that we work with the number of brands that have just like crazy strong subscription retention, but still their customer base does churn and turn over. And so you have to always be growing the new customers you're dropping into your kind of cohort system, so to speak. If you don't eventually you will, you will suck the LTV piggy bank dry. Right. And, and you'll die.
Shinghi Detlefsen (19:25)
Yeah. And my favorite term, like I always try to tell people like CAC is a sunk cost on a customer. Right. And like so many people like, no, I'm in my growth stage or I'm in this like different stage where I'm just trying to spend more, spend more and spend more. I'm growing and I'm like, but you're never going to make money. Like no matter what, even if you grow in the future, like once you lose, if you miss spend on a customer, you can never make that back.
Jon Blair (19:47)
for sure.
Shinghi Detlefsen (19:55)
So like, yes, you're in high growth, for what basically? If you're not If you're not growing profitably or at the right scale, like you're growing for what?
Jon Blair (19:58)
Totally.
Jon Blair (20:05)
Well, you know what this really does come back to? It's funny. I remember this from our first conversation when you, when you first came on the, on the pod and you just kept talking about customer, like understanding customer behavior. That's you just kept talking about customer behavior. Why is that so important? It's because the way your business, you have to be profitable at the customer level to be able to stack.
Shinghi Detlefsen (20:09)
Yeah.
Shinghi Detlefsen (20:29)
Bingo.
Jon Blair (20:33)
contribution margin at scale to become profitable at the company level. So if you don't understand your customer level profitability and going even one level deeper and saying, how does a new customer contribute to that versus a returning customer contribute to that over time? And then go even one level deeper with the ExpandFi a Shopify customer versus an Amazon customer. If you don't have those insights, you can't
properly assess how you should be spending money from an acquisition or an ad standpoint at the customer level. like you can't, once you see that, you can't unsee it. Spending on ads is a customer level game. It's not a company level game, right? And it should roll up to a company level outcome, but it's a customer level transactional game you're playing.
Shinghi Detlefsen (21:14)
Yep.
Shinghi Detlefsen (21:20)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Shinghi Detlefsen (21:28)
Right, which is why have to tell people is that you have to take ACOS, you have to take tacos and just like throw them out the window because those are input efficiency metrics into CAC. Right, like if you're optimizing on the efficiency metrics, you're completely blind to what you just said. The actual profitability at a customer level. And you can run your business for a while, like where your bottom line looks pretty good, but it's not growing and it will be slightly declining over time if you have...
Jon Blair (21:39)
Totally.
Shinghi Detlefsen (21:57)
if your sunk cost and CAC for each customer is too high. You're just begging for money back after that point in time from these customers.
Jon Blair (22:07)
So I'm curious, if you wouldn't mind sharing, what's kind of the high level roadmap of like the most exciting stuff that you're working on, or features that you're working on kind of shipping at ExpandFi?
Shinghi Detlefsen (22:11)
Yeah.
Shinghi Detlefsen (22:21)
Yeah, so we have, we're in TikTok alpha right now. So there's 25 spots open. So whoever's listening, if. Yeah.
Jon Blair (22:24)
Nice. I'm super excited about that. My team is dying to get their hands on that.
Shinghi Detlefsen (22:31)
Yeah, so connect now. It'll be available in Dash, so our MCP service already, right away, and then it'll start being in reports as we build that out. Walmart's end of September. We already have met with the Walmart team. We're pretty much good to go for end of September. And then with that, like I keep telling people, like when you sign up for ExpandFi, it's not like a sales SaaS app, right? It's like, it's as if you hired an entire BI team. Like that's the closest equivalent of what you're getting. And we don't gatekeep any bit of your data, so it's all yours.
Jon Blair (22:41)
Okay.
Shinghi Detlefsen (23:01)
So my goal is I'm trying to solve, I want Amazon to be nothing more than a game of math. So I want it to be super clear for each user that they can look at this and they can say, okay, I need to be spending more on that keyword for this outcome, for this CAC or cut, like you said, for this overall customer outcome, that's where I need to be taking the action or reducing spend equivalently. And then with the Shopify side, once we get Meta, Google, and we'll have TikTok, we have Walmart all in, it becomes incredibly,
like so much easier for you to manage your entire customer profile in one place, right? Where everything's like for like, like you can see your total ad spend, you can see blended, like all of it's in there. And again, now you get to play the game, but not on hard mode anymore. It's like you're on easy mode now. And that's also, allowed, I think many, what you'll see too is like many brands will go from being Amazon only.
Jon Blair (23:37)
Yep. Totally.
Jon Blair (23:49)
for sure.
Shinghi Detlefsen (23:57)
to or Shopify only or whatever it is to want to be multi-channel because of the economies of scale and ads. yeah, it's like, dude, whenever I love whenever I show these Shopify people like, yeah, you're spending, you know, $70 in CAC on Shopify, but you go to Amazon, your CAC's $3. And in part, that's because you spent $70 in Meta that your CAC gets to be $3 on Amazon. So when you put it all together, like the end goal is that
Jon Blair (24:04)
100%.
Jon Blair (24:19)
Totally totally
Shinghi Detlefsen (24:26)
you have everything you need to run the business within ExpandFi. And also power your ERPs, like all that fun stuff too, down the line.
Jon Blair (24:35)
I love it man, we keep adding more brands to the platform because we keep finding new use cases and look, I'm not even hiding this, what we have figured out using the ExpandFi data in terms of looking at cohort CAC to LTV optimization, cohort level LTV analysis across more than one channel, I hate to say it, we're like the only fractional CFO firm doing this. I don't know why.
It has to be done. Like it has to be done if you're going to advise properly on this. And I'm not saying that to gloat. I'm saying like we're onto something that is truly working. mean, we have, we have, we have four X five X 10 X profitably brands using ExpandFi with the, with the CAC to LTV optimization insights we're able to bring to the table. And I'm saying this with such like passion.
because I want brands to understand there's a way to do it. We're doing it now. It's working. The owners of these brands are making a ton of money. So if you own a brand that has strong LTV consumables with a subscription, you know, a subscription opt-in strategy, you should highly consider over time expanding to more than just Shopify. And there is a way to optimize
across channels, CAC to LTV, using data from a platform like ExpandFi and having the right growth marketing and finance team who understand how to leverage that data. So I'm excited to keep developing this partnership with you guys as kind of like a it's kind of like a final thought here. Where can people find, what's the easiest way for people to get on and try ExpandFi?
Shinghi Detlefsen (26:17)
Bye for
Shinghi Detlefsen (26:29)
Yeah, I mean, just go to ExpandFi.com, sign up for a free trial. We have two weeks free trial, so you can basically test out the whole system, like however you like it. We do gate downloading and our MCP, which is some of our best features. And you just have to be a paid member to get that. know, Jon said it, I'll say it too. It's like, I wouldn't be so proud of what we've built if it didn't work for my own brand.
Like we've completely changed, like Jon said, he's changed his trajectory for many brands and friends that I know, the ones he's talking about. We did the same thing for our brand. Like it's possible. It's almost like you just need that green light and then you need that somebody who's done it before, like a Jon to say, go. And when you do it, it opens up whole new horizons because you thought that like, maybe I was stuck. Maybe the reason why I'm not growing is because of X, Y, and Z.
The reason why a lot of Amazon brands are not growing is because they settled for efficient ACOS overgrowth. And so you need to change your mind and the whole world becomes your oyster. So I say go for it. Try again, no pressure, try it. I would love more people to succeed. I think that that's a win-win for everyone.
Jon Blair (27:29)
Yeah.
Jon Blair (27:43)
I love it man, look my final thought I wanna leave everyone with is if you wanna scale your brand to like 50 plus million, you're likely gonna have to get onto more than one e-commerce sales channel and you are going to have to be profitable incrementally with an ever increasing CAC. That is what you have to figure out with your brand and the stuff that we have talked about here today is kind of like foundational baseline.
for some of the data and analyses that need to be table stakes in your brand to be able to scale profitably onto multiple e-commerce channels and to profitably absorb a rising CAC as you scale. So, Shinghi, thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for your partnership and I look forward to hopefully having you back soon.
Shinghi Detlefsen (28:32)
Thank you for having Jon. We appreciate it the same way. I can't, you know, we want to recommend, I keep telling people, go work with Jon, go work with Free to Grow CFO, because people need humans. Like this has not gone away and I did not solve this. You need it. You need a second set of eyes on the business. And I feel like the ROI on your team, the ROI and expand, like all of this is just, I wouldn't build if it wasn't worthwhile. Like you got to add value and that's what we're doing. enjoy Jon. Thank you, man. Thank you for having me. Bye.
Jon Blair (28:45)
Totally.
Jon Blair (28:56)
100%.
All right, man. Talk to you soon.
