Why Your Marketing Looks Unprofitable (But Isn’t)
Most eCommerce brands aren’t losing money because of bad marketing.
They’re losing money because they’re measuring it wrong.
In this episode of the Free to Grow CFO Podcast, Jon sits down with Shinghi Detlefsen (CEO of ExpandFi) to break down one of the most misunderstood problems in eCommerce: how to actually measure marketing profitability across Amazon and Shopify—and why most brands get it wrong.
Shinghi shares how he went from breaking Excel trying to understand Amazon LTV to building ExpandFi, a tool designed by operators, for operators. The conversation goes deep into what actually drives profitable growth—and why optimizing for low CAC is often the exact thing holding brands back.
If you’re trying to scale profitably, this episode will change how you think about marketing, data, and decision-making.
Because at the end of the day, the brands that win aren’t the ones with the lowest CAC—
they’re the ones who know exactly how much they can spend to acquire a customer… and have the confidence to do it.
Key Takeaways
Understanding customer behavior is key to profitable scaling.
ExpandFi helps brands optimize ad spend through detailed analytics.
Cohort analysis is complex but essential for growth decisions.
Episode Links
Jon Blair - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathon-albert-blair/
Shinghi Detlefsen- https://www.linkedin.com/in/shinghi-detlefsen-5ab3183a/
Free to Grow CFO - https://freetogrowcfo.com/
Expandfi - expandfi.com
Meet Shinghi Detlefsen
Shinghi Detlefsen is a founder and operator with a background at Hulu, Google, and Amazon, where he spent nearly a decade building and scaling products. He is a father of four and has been married for over 16 years.
Today, he works across both consumer products and SaaS, focusing on customer analytics and profitability for eCommerce brands. Across his ventures, he is on track to surpass nine figures in lifetime revenue this year.
Transcript
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00:37 From Corporate to Entrepreneurship: Shinghi's Journey
03:10 Building Expandify: Solving E-commerce Challenges
05:48 Understanding Customer Lifetime Value and Profitability
08:29 The Importance of Cohort Analysis in E-commerce
11:26 Navigating Amazon's Complexities for E-commerce Success
14:06 The Role of Promotions and Incrementality in Sales
16:47 Strategic Insights for E-commerce Founders
19:26 The Future of E-commerce Analytics and AI
24:00 Final Thought
Jon Blair (00:38)
All right, we're back and I'm excited for today's conversation. I'm joined by my buddy, Shinghi Detlefsen CEO of ExpandFi What's happening, Shinghi?
Shinghi Detlefsen (00:46)
Hey Jon thanks for having me on. Happy to be here.
Jon Blair (00:48)
Yeah, so today, I mean, we're gonna chat about a bunch of things. Chat about your founder story, chat about what you guys are building over there at ExpandFi, talk a little bit about managing ad spend profitability, multi-channel e-commerce, marketing profitability analysis, but before we do, can you walk the audience through a brief background of kind of who you are and how you ended up where you're at today?
Shinghi Detlefsen (01:09)
Yeah, sure. you know, my background to entrepreneurship is more not straight out of college or anything like that. I did the corporate route for quite a while, eight years. I graduated from Berkeley. It was a Haas undergrad there. So I was always fascinated with business. I loved it. I hated accounting and a couple other classes, but in general, like, you know, I loved it.
Jon Blair (01:27)
Ha
Shinghi Detlefsen (01:29)
It's so funny now when I reflect on school and I talked to like, you know, like an 18 year old or somebody who's looking, should I go to college or should I not go to college? I almost tell them like, it's almost better just to start a business. Like even if you're doing it during college, all of the lessons and classes that you have during college, we become so much more relevant. You know, the simplest thing, like your Excel class, right? When you're doing these like theoretical exercises about,
Whatever it may be like it's not really interesting, but when it's your money, it's fascinating. so after Exactly. So I did corporate I did Google I worked at Hulu I worked at Amazon for the longest time or for about six years and While I was at Amazon my wife started our company a Wholesome Story and a dietary supplement company in the woman's health and wellness space
Jon Blair (01:56)
Totally. Having skin in the game.
Shinghi Detlefsen (02:14)
And that grew to the point where like, you know, every day after work, I would go home and we would just sit there and be working on it at night. You know, we worked till like 10 o'clock at night and then, you the next day I'd go back to work, do the same thing over and over and over again. And we grew to the point where I could finally leave Amazon. that was in 2020. So we started the company in 2017. Three years later, we could actually leave. And it's been a journey, you know, it's like leaving corporate routes entrepreneurship.
I told everyone the day I left Amazon was like, know, Braveheart, the movie when the guy's screaming for you, right? That's how it felt. Like you leave and you're just like, wow, like my mind is mine. Any corporate job paying you 80 % of your mind is theirs. You're thinking about their problems. You're solving their things. You're stressing about what you have to do at work. And now my mind is mine. But the flip side of that.
Jon Blair (02:42)
yeah.
Yeah.
Shinghi Detlefsen (03:00)
is now I can't stop working. I can't stop thinking about the business. It never goes away. I can't just close my laptop and walk away. It's my money. It's my business. I got to invest in it. There's pros and cons of all of it.
Jon Blair (03:00)
You
Well, okay, there's a
couple things that you mentioned that I wanna dive into a little bit deeper. One your wife starting a brand and you working with her on it, kind of, and we'll get into ExpandFi a little bit more in a second, but you started this software e-comm brand founders and operators, but shaped by, I would imagine, your experience.
Shinghi Detlefsen (03:21)
Yeah.
Jon Blair (03:35)
helping your wife start and operate and scale an e-comm brand. And so there's this huge disconnect I see often times with SaaS tools, like e-commerce brand enabling SaaS tools is that the founders have no idea what it's like to be in the shoes of their ideal client, right? And there's this huge disconnect. They're trying to solve a problem that they know has a lot of pain, maybe has a big tam, but they don't actually understand the problem that they're solving. Walk me through a little bit about
the core problem you guys are solving at ExpandFi, how you stumbled upon it, and the connection back to like your journey as an e-comm operator.
Shinghi Detlefsen (04:11)
Well, I'll start with where it started. And that was like, we were trying to understand LTV on Amazon. And this is like 2021 timeframe when it was literally like nobody knew about customer data at all. Shopify guys did, but we had just launched our Shopify store and I saw all this cool customer for us. Like, well, can I get that for Amazon?
And you couldn't, or you could, but like downloading reports, was uploading them Excel, I was playing with it. And it grew to the point where like my Excel couldn't handle it. Like the number of rows was just too big. And then I was outside talking to my neighbor in Seattle about the problem and he was like, yo, sure. We'll build something in a weekend. Five years later, we're, this is what ExpandFi is. It was just talking about my co-founder. Yeah.
Jon Blair (04:40)
Yeah, yeah.
Is that your co-founder or is your neighbor your co-founder? I love that, I love that. So
you broke, you started a brand, you're trying to figure out how to understand, you you're Amazon customer but ultimately you're Amazon performance, right? And you build a manual way to understand that with Excel, you break Excel, you talk with your neighbor about it, then you start ExpandFi. I love that.
Shinghi Detlefsen (05:13)
Exactly. That's how it started.
But I fully agree with you. So my job at Amazon was a product manager, right? And we were building marketing automation tools for designers to handle the issue of Amazon as a worldwide company. How do we handle all these different languages, different art? We needed a way to manipulate it all together.
And the exact problem that you're describing, we're like, go to the a designer and I'm trying to understand what they're doing. I'm trying to understand their work and like, you know, like how does it work? And I'm trying to build a tool that they wanna use. That is a very difficult thing to do well, like very difficult. Because I am my own user, any idea that I have for a report.
is a report that somebody else who operates a brand will want to use. Because I'm answering a question that is an important business question that I have. And so that's how we've ended up with like 76 plus reports, is anytime I have a question about my business, I answer that through ExpandFi.
Jon Blair (06:03)
So you started with the focus on understanding, we'll call it Amazon LTV or Amazon customer repeat purchase behavior maybe is another way to, where have you expanded, no pun intended, where have you expanded the capabilities to today within the platform?
Shinghi Detlefsen (06:13)
Exactly.
Yeah, so today we know for every single customer, their lifetime value, we know what promotions they're using. We know also what we call the lifetime profit, LTP, of that customer, which is the contribution profit of that customer. And so now you could put all of these things together and I can tell you precisely how much can you pay to acquire this customer and how much can you not pay to acquire this customer? Like if you overpaid, you will never make your money back.
And again, I treat this like because I'm solving it for my own business with my own real money. I'm taking what I'm learning to Expandfi I'm applying it. It better darn work or otherwise like what am I doing? And like, let me just show you a good example. Like we just launched a tool called the spend planner. And the spend planner is essentially it shows you what spend you are at currently for CAC. So let's say you're at a $10 CAC and it's optimizing for 12 month contribution profit from those customers that you were going to acquire.
And what it'll tell you is either you should spend more, so increase your CAC, you should spend less, you should decrease your CAC. And when you spend more or you spend less, there's a diminishing curve of new customers that you get. Right, if you spend more, say you spend more, 100 % more, you're not gonna get 100 % more customers. It'll diminish, right? You're probably gonna get like 60 % or something like that. And so it's playing in that diminishing curve to optimize for 12 month contribution profit.
which is literally like what you guys do. It's like the best metric in the world, regardless if you're trying to sell your business, if you're trying to cashflow your business, like whatever it is, it's the best metric. And what we discovered in that one was that we were underspending significantly on our products, like significantly. And we were following the old like hack, which was like, hey, if you're ranked top four organically for your products, you should cut ad spend for those keywords. We were like, that's a good idea, yeah.
That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life, dude. Now that I go back and look at the data, like we increased our ad spread from January to March by a hundred percent. So $150,000 a month to $300,000. Our CAC is flat. We are still in our model, still telling us to spend more. March was a record month for us in both new customer acquisition, returning customers and top line sales. And 12 months from now will be a record month for us in contribution.
Jon Blair (08:05)
Yeah
So, okay,
there's a couple things I wanna draw here. First off, I've said this a lot in my content, but I just want to reiterate this. Scaling an e-commerce brand fast and profitably is not about minimizing CAC. It's about figuring out the highest your CAC can possibly go and the most ad spend you could possibly spend at that CAC. know, whoever can spend the most to acquire a customer is gonna win.
Shinghi Detlefsen (08:45)
Yes.
Jon Blair (08:57)
And the thing is, there's more than one dimension that plays into that decision, right? There's what is the unit economics of gross profit on a new customer order? What's available, right? And then what is the repeat purchase profile look like of each cohort? And those things are always changing too, right? They're not always the same. Furthermore, and this is where we got into ExpandFi, a Free to Grow CFO.
Shinghi Detlefsen (09:16)
Yes.
Jon Blair (09:19)
is you may have more than one sales channel. So you have Shopify maybe to start and then you're Shopify and Amazon. And really quickly for us, like we had everything dialed, you know, in terms of the process of doing kind of LTV to CAC analysis, figuring out how hard we could push ad spend to maximize contribution margin. But then once those brands opened up Amazon, it became this black hole and those brands were all spending enough money on Meta.
that we know for a fact it's converting on Amazon. But when you can't tell how much it's driving new customer sales versus returning customer sales and also see it on a cohort basis, it starts becoming near impossible, right, to decide if you should throttle spend up or down or keep it where it's at. So, I mean, we're using it for a lot of things, but one of, like, the bread and butter is looking at a combined cohort model.
of Shopify and Amazon together because we know that they together are being driven by meta spend, right? And going, not making the conclusion, not making the incorrect conclusion that D T C is unprofitable when it actually is profitable or like the whole funnel is actually profitable but you gotta take into account what's happening on Shopify. I do wanna ask like a really key question, because I don't think a lot of people understand this.
I have, I've beat my head against the wall for too many years dealing with this problem. It sounds like you did too and you broke Excel. Why is it so hard to analyze cohort level data on Amazon if you don't have a tool like ExpandFi?
Shinghi Detlefsen (10:54)
You can do it once fairly easily. It's actually redoing it every time is what's difficult. And that's because like...
Your whole business is like an organism. You can treat it. It's like moving, right? In different ways. It's like customer data. It's not a fixed point in time thing. Like you can have a customer that gets a sale and then they get a refund. You can have a customer that gets two additional sales. And every time that new thing comes in, you have to go update everything. So all of your stats need to be updated. Every single customer with every new sale needs to have that added to them or removed for them if there's a refund. Like the reprocessing side of customer analytics is the difficult side.
And that's why there's like, you know, like what AI is doing to SaaS is really like it's destroying crud apps, like create, read, update, delete, right? Like a Monday board, that kind of stuff, like super easy. The processing side has not changed. And processing also comes at like a significant cost because you have to run servers to go do all of that and pipeline data. Like Amazon is the absolute worst API in the world and you get to go do that.
Jon Blair (11:51)
Yeah, it really is.
Shinghi Detlefsen (11:53)
Yeah. And so
like I've seen so many of my peers like, Oh, I'm doing it. You know, I spent like 14 hours on it yesterday and it still isn't working, but I'm almost there. Right. Like I tell everyone, yeah, like the vibe coding. You can get to 80 % like that. And then this is, this is what I learned to tell people. You feel like you're a God. You feel like, Oh, don't need anything. I don't need anyone anymore, but the remaining 20 % is the most difficult part. And you will actually never complete it. You will never, you will give up.
Jon Blair (12:09)
Yeah.
Hahaha
Shinghi Detlefsen (12:20)
majority of people will give up before they get there. But yeah, so that's the difficult part is reprocessing.
Jon Blair (12:24)
That makes sense. Yeah,
when you put it in those terms, that makes perfect sense. It's like, cool, building the snapshot one time, great, but then what do you do when you need to refresh it the following month and the following month and the following, and here's the thing, you don't, these are not snapshots that you look at once and then you look at them again in 12 months. You have to be looking at them at minimum every single month because every cohort's different. There's different things you're doing.
marketing tactic wise that drive different behavior within a given cohort. Like I'll give a perfect example. There's a brand that we work with that we helped them test offering a steeper discount on subscription opt-in, right? And so that cohort, the steepest discount, the steepest opt-in discount they'd ever historically offered. That cohort had a much different month one behavior.
But the follow on month two, three, four, five, six, seven was also vastly different and the retention was incredible and it more than paid for the steeper loss that we took in month one. And so the point I'm making is like, this is actually a trap. I'm curious to get your opinion on this. As I use cohort data more as a CFO, you back in the day when I first started using it, you kind of look at like some of the averages and some of the global
kind of statistics within a 12 month cohort model to give you like rough benchmarks of, okay, we can spend up to here. But as I do it more and more, like, we gotta look at each cohort because we're tweaking, we're messing around with what products are we trying to get to use to acquire new customers? What are we doing to incentivize subscription opt-ins? What are you, this is getting at my question for you, which is like, what do you think is the most valuable?
What are the levels of granularity you need to go down? When you go from like the global 12 month cohort, where do you need to go from there to get more granular to really understand what's going on?
Shinghi Detlefsen (14:17)
I think at the end of the day, every question should be a customer question. Like the promotion question that you give exactly is like, like we did a study and I did it on my own brands and it's a report in ExpandFi but there's not a single promotion that I found that was not incremental. Zero.
Like everything that Amazon offers, the brand tailored promotions, subscribers, like coupons, reorder coupons, right? Like best deals, like they're literally all incremental. And this is why Amazon does like, like it has how many prime days this year? It's going to have three different prime days. And I bet you next year there'll be four, right? And it'll five, say every month there'll be a prime day or whatever. And the reason for that is it's literally incremental every single time.
Jon Blair (14:47)
Yeah, yeah.
Shinghi Detlefsen (14:55)
But there are varying degrees of incrementality, right? There's like a little bit incremental, like a brand tailored promotion, abandoned cart is a good one. It's like $2 or a dollar incremental. And then you go to like brand tailored promotions, high potential new customers. Now that's like $19 incremental. So what promotion you run matters. And if you're looking at it only through the lens of like sales, you can't see it. You see, I got a sale, good. But you don't know why or what's important about that.
Jon Blair (15:15)
Totally.
Shinghi Detlefsen (15:20)
So yeah, that's my favorite thing is like every business question comes back down to a customer question and that's hopefully where we can answer those. I fully agree that like the data I'm looking at now is like daily cap, especially when you're making these big changes in your business. Like if you're steady state, meh, once a month.
But if you're like, hey, we're doubling ads, you better believe I'm watching this like a hawk. Our CAC better not be going up to insanity there. So yeah, it's all over I'd say, Jon, but like, yeah, there's a hard place where you should not be looking at customers, should only be looking at sales.
Jon Blair (15:52)
Yeah, well, okay, man, my mind is going so many different places of things I want to talk about. I had this argument with someone that worked within one of our clients' businesses. He's not even on the executive team, really. He's on the data team, and he was arguing with me about the fact that they're a newer client, we're instituting a CAC ceiling. And he was really pissed about it. He's like, the marketing team's not gonna care about this. All they care about is blended ROI.
And I was like, dude, I know. That's why we're implementing a CAC ceiling. This is not a high LTV consumables brand. This is an apparel brand that has to, they've gotta break even at least on new customers. They have a lot of LTV, but that LTV gets accumulated not over like three or four months. You can't break even on a loss in three or four months. This is like, you create raving fans in over 12, 18, 24 months. You build up these big repeat purchase waves.
but it's not something where you can afford to use that to fund a new customer loss. And he couldn't understand this, and I was having a hard time explaining it to him, not because I didn't understand it, but because he had not been in the marketing to understand some of these dynamics. Because you do have to have at least a baseline understanding of your customer's behavior. That's what this comes back to. And there's, I'm learning,
And this makes sense when I say this out loud, but not everyone knows this. You can't coerce a different product category's consumption patterns on your customers. If you sell consumer electronics, a durable good, you can't force them into opting into a subscription. That's not how that product is consumed. Same thing with apparel. Like you just have to know your customer's behavior.
And then when you start getting into some of these analytics, it starts becoming really powerful. The second thing I want to say is we have a mutual client for you to go to CFO and ExpandFi. And I talked to them last week, it's not my CFO client, but I talked to their CEO last week about something separate. And he was telling me how next level it was for ExpandFi. You know, our CFO use ExpandFi to help them understand like, hey, on Amazon, there's this product that's driving most of your subscription opt-in, and it's not what we thought.
is our hero product. It's this other one. And they de-emphasize the one that they thought was their new customer like kind of acquisition hero product. And they started doubling down on driving subscriptions for this other one. That is basically their whole business now. And they just had last month a record revenue and profit month because of this insight. And so I just want to say that out loud because I want people to hear.
Shinghi Detlefsen (18:24)
Yeah.
Jon Blair (18:29)
It literally is that impactful. They just had a record revenue and profit month and I think we started working with them maybe 18 months ago. They've doubled their revenue since then and they were losing money on a bottom line basis before and now they're profitable double the revenue. It's really huge impact you can make with this analytics.
Shinghi Detlefsen (18:46)
Well, I mean, that's the power. It's like when you can see that you can spend more or do more, it's not a guess anymore, right? It's not a hunch that like, oh, I think we should be spending more. It's like, no, dude, you literally can't. And even on your point where like, have a report it's called LTV to CAC and LTP to CAC. And on the LTP to CAC side, it's like, what's ratio for CAC to lifetime profit? And I always tell people, say, go look at the 12 month mark.
and then look at the return that you get. So for instance, you put a dollar in advertising, you're getting $2.30 back. Can you get that return in the stock market? No, you absolutely cannot.
Jon Blair (19:20)
Yeah, yeah, like,
and you can't get that, you can't get that in most things, like over a 12 month period. No, like most people are doubling their in maybe a 12 to 15 month period with a standard return on most other investments, right? So 12 to 15 years, not 12 months, right?
Shinghi Detlefsen (19:27)
Nope.
Yeah, and so like that's like the mind that I love to tell people is like, guys, like you have a business that is like, there's a reason why other companies want to buy companies like ours. And that's because they could take a dollar and they could turn it into 230 in a year. Like that's incredible.
But then it comes back to your point where like, you know, sub brands that have like that 18 month or 24 months, it doesn't make sense to go past a certain amount. You're better off just putting your money in the stock market. And for some products, that is also true. So it's like, that's the other learning that I've had. It's, dude, everything is brand dependent. Everything is product dependent. There's no one size fits all. And like to your point too, Jon,
Like everyone's like, now I AI, I don't need people anymore. like, I'm, the more I build ExpandFi, the more I realize like we need smart people like, you know, Jon, your group to help our users because otherwise it takes a PhD to like, you have all of this data, but you need to understand what, so what, what do I do with it? And do it confidently, right? That's the key part. You really need someone like, like your group.
Jon Blair (20:35)
Totally.
Well, okay, so a couple of things you mentioned. I always tell my team, and this is true, we pride ourselves on this, most CFO firms, when it comes to marketing spend, they are like these old school traditional CFOs of like, they're trying to protect the business from too much marketing spend. So they're looking for reasons to pull it back. I always tell my team, we're the opposite. We specifically work with scaling brands. Our goal is to find
Shinghi Detlefsen (20:56)
All right.
Jon Blair (21:05)
give you permission to increase spend, but knowing that we can prove that it's gonna increase your profitability if you do so. And that's not always there. Sometimes there's work that needs to be done to make that, to put that framework in place to make it possible, but that's the mindset shift. It's looking for permission to, like you said, with confidence, be able to scale spend, to grow fast and grow profitably.
And the way we do it on the CFO side, going back to like, do you need people? Do you need a CFO now that there's AI? Well, you guys opened up your MCP, we're messing with that and we're using it to answer all kinds of questions. But guess what we're able to do? First off, we're able to know what questions to ask, which is a really important thing. Not everyone knows the right questions to ask, right? But then furthermore, when we get a recommendation or we get some insights, we can then translate to, that's going to impact our P &L.
and our balance sheet and our cash flow statement in these ways, but one step further, assess risk. That's really important because AI can give you a mathematical, like a logically correct answer that doesn't have a proper assessment of risk. And then also we have to come back to the humans involved in the business, the owners, the founders, the CEO, and say, what are your goals and what's your risk tolerance? And we need to take these insights and help you make decisions that kind of...
triangulate all of those things together. Now, we don't need analysts as much anymore to break Excel like you did before you started ExpandFi, but we certainly need financial strategists to help make sense of all this and then turn it into decision making.
Shinghi Detlefsen (22:45)
Yep, and I'm a big fan. that's, I think like AI is going the way the same way that PC did, right? It's just making everyone so much more capable and you give it to an extremely capable person and they become an incredible person. Like that's basically what
Jon Blair (22:58)
Most people forget before
calculators, you know what a calculator was? It was a person. There was a job called a calculator. Big giant corporations had entire floors of people called calculators and that's where all the math got done for all these different areas of the business. And then when the calculator came around and then obviously later the computer, all those calculators lost their jobs. But people started then changing their careers to leverage that new technology and still carry out the
Shinghi Detlefsen (23:02)
Yeah.
Right.
Jon Blair (23:27)
a lot of the same outcomes, but just in a different way. I wanna ask you, man, I might need to have you come back on again, because the way that you think, I think, is really, really helpful for our audience. if you have one piece of advice for a brand founder that's trying to figure out Amazon and Shopify LTV, from the wisdom of you going on that journey on your own, what's the one thing you suggest they look at?
Shinghi Detlefsen (23:50)
So there's a saying where you make 20 % of your money operating your business, you make 80 % when you sell. And I think so many people, they know that, but they forget that the decisions to make the 80 % matter. And so I see like many brands, they'll go grow a business and they try to go like super wide, they stand for nothing, or they'll make these decisions which are like gray or black hat.
and they're forgetting that they're gonna make 80 % of their money when they're gonna sell their business. And what that spirals into, it's like if you make these decisions, nobody will buy you. Like you become unbuyable and then they've built a business that doesn't even cash flow well, thinking that they're gonna exit. I would say like always have the goal in mind of what you want to achieve. If you're gonna cash flow, this is a great business to do that too. like, yeah, and then...
Jon Blair (24:36)
Totally.
Shinghi Detlefsen (24:38)
never forget that like SaaS isn't going to be the thing that's going to grow your business 100 % year over year. Like we all want to point fingers and blame too, but it's, it's being, it's, it's core. It's like people, product, price, promotion, places, right? Like those are the things, the five things that actually grow your business and make sure most of your time and efforts focused on those things. And then lastly, my rule for my entire team. This is the key rule. You can never violate this rule. Never grow out of stock.
Jon Blair (24:55)
Man.
Shinghi Detlefsen (25:01)
That is the one rule for e-commerce. You just never do it.
Jon Blair (25:03)
Especially if I
always tell those brands, do not run out of subscription inventory. If you can't fill your subscriptions, it's a death sentence. But yeah, man, this was an awesome conversation. Before we close up here, where can people find more information about ExpandFi and about Wholesome Story, your brand?
Shinghi Detlefsen (25:22)
Yeah, just go to expandfi.com. We have a 14 day free trial. I always recommend people like just try it. And I like, don't have a sales team. We don't have people that bug you, try to keep, get you back, cold call you, none of that. We don't do that. We even spent a dollar in advertising either. And we treat the product as our ads. So if we don't have a good enough product, that's on us. There's also like what we found is the...
There is product market fit and our product is not the best for some brands too. Like brands that don't have these worries about CAC to LTV or they're all one-time purchases, not a great fit. But brands that do, perfect fit. And then wholesomestory.com is for our dietary supplement company. But yeah, it has been great, Jon. Wonderful, to chat. Happy to do it again.
Jon Blair (25:51)
for
Yeah, thanks for coming on, man. I think we will have to do this again and we look forward to kind of further developing our partnership with you guys. It's been great with the mutual clients we've been working on and we're excited about where you guys are taking the tool. So thanks again for joining, man.
Shinghi Detlefsen (26:13)
Cool, appreciate it Jon, have a good one.
